Unique problem with no answer

[kade12]

We recently purchased a very old property from a middle aged English Gentleman through a local 25 years established reputable agent who was selling due to the death of his elderly mother who had lived in it for 22 years..who bought it through the same agent..Prior to that another English couple had lived in it for what i believe was around 6yearsThe property which could be 150 years old was barely habitibul and had full title deeds which we recieved on the purchase,,,,no problem.
The property and land is enclosed by a one and a half metre wall that looks as though it has been there a zillion years(this is important),,,,,no problem.
The seller,agent,and solicitor used i could not fault in any of their actions and fully believe they could not see the forthcoming problem...Trust me...so far again no problem.
Now here's where the fun starts.We apply for planning permision to improve and extend the property(remember it being surrounded by a wall that had been there a zillion years)..Our architect carries out all the surveys submits the plans and finds out that we do NOT OWN APPROXIMATELY ONE THIRD OF THE LAND IT IS ON.
Trust me on this,the seller,agent and solicitor could not have known anything about this and if you saw the property you would understand why.
Enquiries have been made to the land registry as to who does in fact own this one third of our land that they say is not ours and they do not know.It is that old they have lost all records.
We have seen the local Mukhtar who says yes that wall has surround the property as long as he knows,he has searched his records and says the one third of our land may be owned by a Turkish company.
Who ever can claim to own this land it is of no use to them,it is completely land locked and can not be built on as it is to small.
So stalemate.No one can find out who owns this land,and we can not move into it until it becomes ours Where is the answhere?

[Nigel Howarth]

Hi kade12 and welcome to the property forum,

I'm surprised that no-one discovered this before you bought the property. If your architect found out about the problem, your lawyer should have done so as well. Associated with the Title Deed, there is a cadastral survey plan showing the location of the property and its size.

I don't know if the problem could have been as a result of the land consolidation exercise. This was designed to eliminate land fragmentation by the grouping up of fragmented and scattered land ownerships into compact holdings.

I'm not sure how you move forward with this. In the UK I believe you get the area cordoned off and post notices - and if no-one claims ownership of the land within the specified time limit (10 years?) you can claim it as yours.

But your lawyer or someone from the Land Registry will be able to advise you how best to proceed.

Regards,

[kade12]

Hi Nigel i am most greatfull for your reply and we will check out what you have said.Our solicitor used on the purchase only carried out the instructions she was given,perhaps it was our fault in not looking at the plans more carefully.It is a huge problem we have and yet no one appears to be at fault.
The part of the land we purchased with the property has been used and occuppied by who ever as owned that property for decades..
The land registry has no documents whatsoever on who owns the land,and as said in my previous posting the local mukhtar thinks it is owned by a Turkish company.It is only about 70/80 sq.mtrs it is land locked to anybody but us.of no use to anyone but us yet we can not do anything untill we own it.Like i said quite a unique problem.
Mmm,i'm not sure about fencing it off for 10 years,we are what you could call "getting on a bit" and might not have that long.

Thanks again for your reply Terry Liversidge

[Pantheman]

Hi Nigel i am most greatfull for your reply and we will check out what you have said.Our solicitor used on the purchase only carried out the instructions she was given,perhaps it was our fault in not looking at the plans more carefully.It is a huge problem we have and yet no one appears to be at fault.
The part of the land we purchased with the property has been used and occuppied by who ever as owned that property for decades..
The land registry has no documents whatsoever on who owns the land,and as said in my previous posting the local mukhtar thinks it is owned by a Turkish company.It is only about 70/80 sq.mtrs it is land locked to anybody but us.of no use to anyone but us yet we can not do anything untill we own it.Like i said quite a unique problem.
Mmm,i'm not sure about fencing it off for 10 years,we are what you could call "getting on a bit" and might not have that long.

Thanks again for your reply Terry Liversidge

Hello sorry to hear about your problem, but here are a couple of ideas.

1. Since it is not owned by the state, you may be able to claim it under the 30 year rule. If you have had it, used it worked it for 30 years or more you can claim it. OK maybe you didn't but if the wall has been there as long as you say it has then it stands to reason that the land now belongs to the house.

2. since they have no records then stake your own claim on it. If no one will contest this then I don't see how they can argue the case.

if the land does belong to a Turkish company, then you will have problems because these now come under the gaurdianship of the RoC until a settlement, if we ever have one.

What I don't get however, is, that the title deeds would have given you the m2 of the plot, so when you took it over did it not look bigger than the title deed had said so?? If someone had shown me a plot (especially a walled one at that) and said here is the title, I would have had something to say if I didn't think that they had matched.

Anyhow, hope you can get and answer, but I would be pushing for either of the items above.

Good luck

[kade12]

Pantheman.Thank you very much for your response and interest,i will persue what you have said.With regards not noticing the size of the plot,on the title deeds it shows as it being 507sq.mtrs.it is a very irregular shaped plot and would be difficult to measure by an amature.However we have had it measured and the walled plot is approx 570/580sq.mtrs. so as you see it is not a big difference but causes us from doing any improvements to make it habitable.
The land registry don't know who owns it our solicitor says she can't go any further,we are really at a loss, we where thinking of offering a reward to some one who could solve this problem for us.As a friend of ours said'there are many problems in Cyprus with property but its unique when there's no one at fault........Thanks again for your interest..Terry liversidge

[Pantheman]

Pantheman.Thank you very much for your response and interest,i will persue what you have said.With regards not noticing the size of the plot,on the title deeds it shows as it being 507sq.mtrs.it is a very irregular shaped plot and would be difficult to measure by an amature.However we have had it measured and the walled plot is approx 570/580sq.mtrs. so as you see it is not a big difference but causes us from doing any improvements to make it habitable.
The land registry don't know who owns it our solicitor says she can't go any further,we are really at a loss, we where thinking of offering a reward to some one who could solve this problem for us.As a friend of ours said'there are many problems in Cyprus with property but its unique when there's no one at fault........Thanks again for your interest..Terry liversidge

OK I see what you mean about the plot, fair enough if it is only that amount of difference.

May I enquire as to where you are based??

Pan

[kade12]

Pan,we are resident in Paphos.What is so annoying over who owns this plot of land is that it's valueless to anyone but us.

[Pantheman]

Pan,we are resident in Paphos.What is so annoying over who owns this plot of land is that it's valueless to anyone but us.

Yes I understand, but it seems that is the law I'm afraid. If it ain't on your title then it ain't yours.

If I were you I would go to the land registry and either ask to speak to someone or even, usually there are people that work freelance there (cheaper than solicitors and do more running around) called 'Dikolavos' . These people do all the form filling for everyone and may know how to go about helping you. Tell them you want to stake a claim or that you want to claim under the 30 year rule and they should tell you what info you need to do this. Its the only way to deal with it. If you were closer, Famagusta or larnaca I may have been able to help, but Paphos is a different district and I don't know anyone up there, sorry.

Sorry I cannot offer anything further.

Good luck and do let us know how you got on.

Pan

[kade12]

Pantheman,you have been most helpfull.We are going to check out every thing you have said and as you requested will let you know the outcome,,,thanks again,,,Terry Liversidge

[pippin]

It is quite common for land which is unused to be used by neighbouring properties, usually as garden area.
Could you not fence the area which is in dispute off and apply for permission to do the neccessary work to the house with that area not included. With a plot of the size you mention you should have no problem and in the meantime you could take panthemans advice regarding the piece that is in dispute.
You DO own the land the house is standing on so you should be able to the renovations to it without any problem.

[kade12]

Thanks again for all your replies.Pippin,the area in question HAS been walled of for at least 50 years,but the area which no one has title deeds for is inside the wall which we thought was OUR garden.We have gone ahead with renewed planning application which our architect says this "no mans land should not effect" but has reduced our build size.Now an elderly very helpfull ex Cypriot estate agent has come up with a document which says that this queried plot is NOT owned by a Turkish company but indeed was owned by a Cypriot in 1993.We are going to the land registry next week to see if this new document will help them to find any records of their own.
We have been reliably informed that there is no records of any planning applications that can be traced at the planning department prior to 1990.If there was our prediment could be almost solved.Thanks again for all your interest.

[Nigel Howarth]

Hi Terry

That sounds like good news - I hope things get resolved quickly.

(I've edited your post by the way for the corrections).

Regards,

[kade12]

Thanks Nigel,spelling,grammer,writing,essay's and the like was never one of my my stronger points....Terry Liversidge